[split topic] On why we do or don't need a new OS

[boistordu]

@Orion as sympathetic I was with your situation… Windows is a work in progress since Microsoft have changed it’s policy to transform windows as service opération system. A bit like can be archlinux in some way.
So no they can’t change with all the will in the world all the interface.

Plus you are just forgetting about rétro-compatibility, you are forgetting about those accountability software like bob software or oodoo. They actually need those kind of things to work properly.

Even in windows server core, or in the iot windows version I’m pretty sure that we can find also relics, always for rétrocompatibility.

And if you give me an hour I can show you some relics in Linux too. You dont have to see that as a problem but as work in progresse. We don’t need to change something who works as it is. The last décade as been more about the hype of UX than something that should be priority number one: security. Simple example in windows: you add a windows host in a LAN and especially on a domain, you can access all the data from this computer remotely whitout activating anything.
It’s à summary but the idea is there.

So no let windows to Microsoft and use something else if you want another expérience. Don’t ask evetech something they dont have the ressources nor the Knowledges to do nor the time to allocate where they already struggling to make their business model work. One thing at à time.

For prism, which is the only initiative, and not an opposition to evetech but more of a add-in, took 2 years to put their model in place with the help of the famous hackers team coreboot to make firmware opensource for the motherboard but nearly every controller in their computers. And it took 2 more years to put their business model in place, make it running smoothly and dévelop on OS Linux based security oriented which is not that bad actually. But you can check their pricetag and the components in their computers, you are playing the High price for this freedom and liberty.

So don’t ask too much and be aware of what is around first and understand the full extend of what you are asking.

Side note: with proton api and others api who are matured enough now, you can run everything on Linux more or less smoothly. So the “not running” on Linux now it’s not a debate anymore.

[Orion]

Yea, I’m not asking anyone to develop an operating system, of course that’s not reasonable and of course its next to impossible for EVE or almost anyone, that said; it’s probably less impossible than it seems and someone eventually could hypothetically do it, and maybe should do it so why not EVE? Probably good reason, I know.

I’m just surprised to see giant illustrated images as relics, and the bitblocky calculator font everywhere. If it needs to be there, so be it, it’s retro. It just looks odd being that UX has been so important for so long at this point, I’m just switching back from Mac and I’ve already noticed even installing a printer or a new surface dial is no easy feat and would likely be too much for the average consumer to handle.

And that’s why Mac is putting all their attention into apps and iOS, and their walled garden operating systems, the back end is always ugly. I’m just saying, if at this point we still havnt taken the 90s fonts and images out, they will prbly never leave. So the computer as we know it, is either dead, or just perpetually alive, (undead?), but it gets increasingly replaced with app ecosystems with no even file architecture. The app you type or film a document in will eventually be the only container it ever exists in with Mac and they’re happy with that. I’m not, and I’ll put up with any amount of relic system fonts to get off Mac, and keep my files, and keep the back end open, but it is just surprising to look at. If Mac never fully rehauled and removed their Classic OS relics and made what I believe they called their Aqua interface waybackwhen they never would have made it into the 2000’s.

I love the V and I begrudgingly accept Windows as the lesser of two evils, it’s just when it already really feels like the 90’s again, it’s kindof over the top to see the glitchy illustrations are still there.

[boistordu]

Again you are not considering a lot of things.
Again why not eve ? They don’t have the Knowledge nor the human ressources, and seriously did you just look at à variances’ tree of Linux OS once in your life ? Don’t worry there are plenty of alternatives to Mac and Linux and you don’t need one more OS just to fit your UX feelings. And yes sorry I’m being à bit sarcastic here but really mate first go check what’s across the street.

We don’t care it’s rétro or not. As à OS builder as Microsoft, you need to supply as much as possible compatibility with old app as possible even if you are going forward with your system. So yes it needs to be there wether you like it or not. If you don’t like it, I propose to you that you make à list of all the win32 app especially in accountability and contact them directly. I’m sure your will very well welcome…LOLILOLILOLILOLILOL.

And last but not least, you seem to forget that Apple has build their OS on an existing base which is Linux. And they didn’t changé much the core system. And to be very practical about things, they limited like crazy the possibilities of their OS.

Just one simple example without even going in entreprise tools:

→ did you look at the performance Counter in windows ? Now compare it to the macos one. Did you see how much Counters you can add to troubleshoot your host ? The macos there is none. There has to be 1000 if not more kind of Counters you can put in the windows performance diagnostics tool. Just one little example: in the ICMP part of the list of Counters (because yes even those kind of granularity is in windows) you have every single one ICMP type of packets.

Do you even réalise the kind of work that has been done for just that in terms of lines of code ?

The philosophy of Apple has always been to make something functional, simple and closed sourced.

And Patrick or others here can say that I’m really not a fan of windows with every bad things I’ve already said about windows but I has its strong points too.

So no stop this non sense. Konsta may be a good Electronical engineer but that doesn’t make him à software engineer or à network architect.
So if they want to do something about OS, I would gladly encourage them to participate into one of the Linux project like PUREOS, and focus themselves into liberate them from the firmware closed sources from Intel with purism team than this non sense of making an OS from the ground up.

[Orion]

Oh ok , cool story bro
I’m just saying,Windows is a bit of a pain

[AML]

Ah, for us ordinary mortals, the OS we like is the OS we are familiar with.
The same upside down logic applies to applications.

[boistordu]

Simple mortals need to évolve like everything and everyone ^^

[AML]

One who drives a car does not always need to be a car mecanic.

[Lukas_Fikr]

Or even car designer/builder.

[Nirut]

But we can be pseudo car mechanic though…

(Which most of the time… make it worse.)

Cretdit: imghumors.com
Sorry, so off topic… please delete this post!

[boistordu]

Anyway I don’t care it’s a bad idea plain and simple that is all. If you don’t understand why this is and why purism is doing a better job at it for specific reason then not my fault either. Try to read something first about it then we can talk;)

[Nirut]

If you mean my post, chill out, just to support your point.

[boistordu]

No don’t worry the général idea of giving encouragements to make yet another OS

[Konstantinos]

@Orion @boistordu Ok I have to pitch in here.
Mid summer we were talking to a huge VC company backing Xiaomi, Razer, Facebook, Oculus and what not and they were very pumped about Eve. They approached us first actually. We have spoken to their senior partners and they were already approving the deal but then came their managing partner (CEO of a fund ). He asked me all same questions like what is your roadmap, why crowd development is special, etc and it was going good. In the end of the meeting the guy told that their fund is super interested and ready to move forward. I was very happy to hear that but last moment just before the meeting needed he asked if we by any chance going to make an OS. I told there are plenty of them and the past tech products trying to do OS and hardware at the same time did not prove to be successful in the market. Also I explained that crowd developed software could be very interesting to us but in the future. Next day I got an email saying that they are not interested to continue since our next big thing is not an OS:)))

Why I wrote this? @Orion you should try fundraising VCs are excited about OS play

[boistordu]

Thanks for that clarification @Konstantinos . And as I can see all those tech guys are still
1/ not taking into considération the advice into considération. Since for years now like you said they still don’t understand that all their attempts failed
2/ OS crow développed exist already, it’s called Linux and especially arch Linux but it’s true for BSD, for gentoo etc etc. Non-initiated or VCs doesn’t know anything about the beginning of a lead in that.
3/ they still don’t get the négative criticism that those same CEOs receives when they got those kind of stupid ideas, should I list the example ?
Kaspersky with KasperskyOS.
Oneplus with oxygenOS( Here actually à lot of people supported them when they use opensource cyanogenmod).
Microsoft with their Microsoft mobile
Apple with their ios thing for their ipad pro where actually everykne was looking to have the real thing on an ipad
Google with their Google Chrome OS shit
All the Smartphone vendors who try to sell their bloatware and/or modified OS where actually every saavy people will get rid of by installing an opensource OS.
Remember also the old example which did’nt survive or just barely:
Sun-> oracle with solaris (do you see that much often à “mainframe” with that "?)
VMS for virtual memory system by DEC bought by “in fine” oracle and finally abandonned
MVS by IBM which is not much used anymore
Etc etc
4/ even IBM doesn’t take those kind of stupid ideas since their new RISC V architecture is opensource and they make it work on Linux or slightlh modified Linux kernel.
5/ should we remember the report release and déclaration from the US state département and pentagon that they will use for the next décade mostly opensource software and OSes and they explain that very cleverly by showing stats about how much faste you get à fix and how much faster à breach is fixed in the code. Even Microsoft has understood that and make moves in this direction.
6/ they seem to all forgetting that for building an OS, you need apps to run on it. If you do something totally différent how will you build the compatibility for existing apps on it ? And which écosystem will you choose ? So basically another variance of the pre-existing stuff ? And how fast will you patch when there is a breach (which will be once Every 2 days especially at the beginnkng)?

Look at how many years now steam is working on making every single game compatible on every machine and they finally got it with proton API… 10 years ? 15years ?

Why steam =~ steamOS and PureOS or Qubes are more or less succeeding ? Because they are trying to make something already there better with a clear goal in mind and very specific. And they teamed up with other teams to do it. PureOS with coreboot, QubesOS with johanna and his cybersecurity Laboratory and with the Xen team(yes the hypervisor team)… And all of those people are making some great contribution to the opensource community everyday with in mind that it will “in fine” make their product better.
Every success story in the last decade, résult from the improvement of the existing stuff not from being build from the ground up. And most of them to improve the opensource materials.

So all that hype for going what ? Making some marketing with a big logo some beautiful screenshots of what you can do on this yet-another hypothetical OS and the slogan " Try the WOW experience" ^^
No Thank you sir ^^ and I really really hope Konsta you feel the same about it because I would hate you see fail on a such frivolous and stupid idea like that.

With all my love

[Patrick_Hermawan]

tldr;

Building an OS isnt easy, most failed. Most OSes are now gravitating towards open source. You need to have timely patches / bug fixes which requires a lot of resources.

[Attiq]

Most VC’s prefer funding software and services because they assume it leads to a better return and less up front risk. VC’s don’t like to fund hardware only companies. they want some sort of service baked into the hardware. For example fit-bit has a subscription service to join its health focused social media platform. almost every big hardware startup offers a baked in service.

I’m almost certain that the VC was wondering if Eve was making some sort of software based platform or service NOT an OS. an OS has no inherent value to a VC unless it is cleverly monetized.

Building a new OS just for the sake of building a new OS would be poor business decision. building some sort of software platform be it an OS or a service that brings some new functionality, could be very lucrative.

I do think eve should at least consider some type of platform/service in the near future because it will increase their profit margins. An obvious example would be an apple care like device insurance service/ warranty extension program.

[Patrick_Hermawan]

Generally though, hardware manufacturers that try to do software services flopped. How many of you regularly use your Acer/Asus/Dell/Lenovo cloud or account?

[Orion]

Sounds interesting.How does one become a fundraiser?

I’m a person of many talents, none of which are currently being utilized lol

[Attiq]

you’re thinking of old school hardware companies, starting such a hardware company these days is extremely difficult, profit margins on hardware are way too thin to allow for enough research and development to keep up with trends, which is why most hardware companies follow/play it safe rather than lead/innovate.

notable recently founded hardware companies (excluding apple) with high margin services/platforms built on software:

Apple - music, i cloud, eventually a video streaming service, apple care,
Xaomi- doesn’t make money of hardware makes money from add on services
Fit bit - add on subscription health and fitness service
Peloton - subscription digital exercise classes
nest/dropcam - could storage for drop cam
Juul labs - auto ship - refill subscription service
DJI - device insurance/cover service and probably some cloud backup service, probably some enterprise service.
occulus - vr platform, game store revenue , potentially ad revenue, potentially an xbox live like subscription
formlabs - ‘pro service’ for professionals, an expensive subscription for enterprise.
lime - hardware loaning service
ring- cloud storage of video
square - payment transaction fees (wouldnt be nearly as popular a service without the nice hardware)
magic leap - AR platform, same revenue potential as occulus
go pro - go pro plus unlimited cloud storage subscription

outliers: jawbone, beats, razer. jawbone went bust because they only did hardware, beats lives and dies on its brand and its brand value has probably eroded massively since apple bought it, razer is the one company that is doing really well on purely hardware because it was one of the first companies to go all in on gamers, a market that is still growing.

companies at risk if they dont diversify their revenue stream. Sonos, Roku and among others Eve.

Im not talking about hardware companies making software to sell hardware (pretty much every OEM on the planet), Im talking about hardware companies adding software based services on top of hardware that bring in additional revenue, this is something that Apple is heavily pursuing, the reason being is that hardware sales always reach a peak they cant continue forever but a monthly subscription to a service or consumable or ad based revenue can continue indefinitely if done properly.

There is no such thing as a hardware or software company anymore, to effectively compete you have to vertically integrate somewhere. microsoft, google, facebook even snapchat and spotify (eventually) all make devices.